Talking Without Tearing Each Other Apart

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Catch us the little foxes they're feasting on our own. They're cruel. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Marriage Altar podcast. My name is Michael. This is my lovely wife Shanna. Jenna. Yay. Yay. Welcome to our. [00:00:39] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. No, I think this is, like, number eight. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Number eight. Welcome to our. Number eight. [00:00:43] Speaker A: I can't believe it's been two months. [00:00:45] Speaker B: Cannot believe it's been two months. That is ridiculous. We're a little bit late on this one. I think we're about, what, four days late? [00:00:51] Speaker A: No, I mean, I'll actually. We'll record this right now. I will edit it real quick and throw it up, and it will release tomorrow. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Oh, what a deal is that? Rock on. We a bad self. My lovely wife does all of the. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Editing, but we did wait for the last minute. We procrastinated. Please forgive us. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Well, we went out of town. We went to Houston last weekend. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Let's talk about that a little bit. [00:01:17] Speaker B: I went down there kicking and screaming. I did everything I could to try to get us out of that trip for the first two weeks, for two weeks before. But when we went down there, it was good. Our hosts were wonderful people. They went way above and beyond anything that we would do. Man, we ate so bad. [00:01:38] Speaker A: Well, the whole trip was. It was a marriage reboot. So, like, nobody knows what we're talking about. Just call the marriage reboot. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:44] Speaker A: And we are going through a circulation right now to become coaches with this program. So we thought we would just slip on in there and it would be like, oh, yeah, we're good. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Oh, whatever. It was so far from easy, man. The first day. The first day. [00:02:00] Speaker A: You can't give away what we did, though. You have to, like, keep it generic. Hard. [00:02:05] Speaker B: After the first day, I knew we still had issues. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:08] Speaker B: And then the second day, we just wanted to kill people. We were like, yeah, we are done. Is there anything good left? [00:02:16] Speaker A: But. [00:02:17] Speaker B: But it was a blessing. [00:02:18] Speaker A: It was so, so eye opening. And I cannot wait until we are ready to do this for other couples, because I really believe. Because when the Lord led me to that particular program, I didn't really know why. I just knew I was drawn to it. Well, then we go down there, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. This is what every married couple needs to go through before they get married. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. They need to go through it because you find out things about the other person that you really didn't know, you know, and then you can make a determination on how you guys can work through things together. [00:02:57] Speaker A: The one Thing I'll say about it is the thing that makes it different is it's very forward focused. Instead of like, oh, my gosh, let's just sit here and rehash our problems for two days straight with the counselor. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:09] Speaker A: It's not really like that. It's really more forward focus, more like purpose focused. And I think that's what makes it different. And that's what I think makes it work. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Less of the past, more. [00:03:23] Speaker A: I can't wait. [00:03:23] Speaker B: I can't wait. Yeah. Certification happens in Orlando. [00:03:28] Speaker A: Somewhere in Florida. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Somewhere in Florida. [00:03:29] Speaker A: I think it's like West Palm beach or something like that. [00:03:32] Speaker B: We'll drive down there in October and we'll see how things go. [00:03:37] Speaker A: I just know it'll wreck your. Your life in a good way. And it will really make you think, holy cow, what was I thinking? Marriage was before I came here? Because it's so not what I thought it was. [00:03:49] Speaker B: It's definitely not what our parents told us it was going to be. It's totally different. But today, on the eighth episode of the marriage podcast, we're going to talk about talking without tearing each other apart. Intense conversations. They happen when you're married. Just because you're married doesn't mean you're always going to agree on everything together. But how you approach your partner with the conversation really determine how the conversation is gonna go. [00:04:22] Speaker A: I would say you start figuring out about, I don't know, two years into being married that, by the way, we. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Just had our anniversary, so. Happy fourth. [00:04:34] Speaker A: I'm sorry, it was on the seventh. It was four years. Yeah. [00:04:37] Speaker B: Happy belated anniversary. All right, go ahead. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Okay. So about two years into being married is when the little things start. I. I think the little things start creeping in. Things that kind of get on your nerves or pet peeves, like, you know, like, like you, you leaving dirty towels in the kitchen on the, on the countertop, and I'm like, hey, are you. You know, there's like three dirty thousand here on the countertop and they're like all wet and wadded up, you know. [00:05:06] Speaker B: But I'm cooking a gourmet meal for you. [00:05:09] Speaker A: I know, but you start noticing things like that, right? And so I think what happens is in the beginning, because you're just so love struck and you're just so, like, blinded by this person is so. You're enamored and you're in love that you don't see a lot of things. [00:05:24] Speaker B: You don't. [00:05:25] Speaker A: You really think our love is strong enough to carry us through every storm? [00:05:30] Speaker B: Wrong. Answer. [00:05:32] Speaker A: I'm laughing because I'm not saying you. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Fall out of love. You really don't. You stay in love with your partner, but it becomes. You realize about that two years too. [00:05:40] Speaker A: That it's work, right? Exactly. Yeah. [00:05:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:44] Speaker A: And you realize that just that in love, feeling is not enough. You have to learn communication skills, and you have to learn, like, some other skills that you don't come into the marriage having usually. [00:05:55] Speaker B: So if you've ever had a conversation with your partner that went from zero to 4,000 in under 60 seconds, then this podcast is for you. [00:06:06] Speaker A: I think that's everybody. [00:06:07] Speaker B: Well, you know, I have a hard time. You know, my memory is not really right, but I have a hard time remembering until last year, when we have gone from zero to a thousand, are calm to raging. I have a hard time remembering that you said there were a few times, but I can't remember ever going from like, hey, baby, how are you doing? I want to rip your head off. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:30] Speaker B: You know, I don't remember ever feeling that way. But, you know, four years of marriage, I'm sure. I'm sure we've had those feelings. I'm sure we've had some discussions. Oh, yes. [00:06:39] Speaker A: You just remembered one. [00:06:40] Speaker B: I just remembered one. The baby shower. [00:06:42] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah. That didn't go. [00:06:44] Speaker A: That was a communication problem. [00:06:45] Speaker B: It was because I was not communicated with you. [00:06:48] Speaker A: Right. And I don't know how to say that without. Without saying too much in this episode, but let's just say I should have asked you if it was okay with you. It became okay because it wasn't okay with you. [00:07:01] Speaker B: Well, you know, there's a long story behind that. And. And after it got. Everything got started, and after everybody got here, the house was packed, it went. Now, this isn't our baby. We don't have any kids together. We're too old. But everything became okay later. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And you were like, God got on to me. And I. [00:07:21] Speaker B: God likes to have fun at my expense. [00:07:23] Speaker A: I think most of the things I'm thinking about, where the conversation escalated, they were so, like, stupid. And you look back and you go, why were we even fighting about that? But, you know, there's something under the surface. [00:07:37] Speaker B: There is. [00:07:38] Speaker A: That hasn't been talked about. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's probably insecurity. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Power struggle. [00:07:42] Speaker B: Power struggle. But even when. When emotions are at their highest, even small disagreements can turn into something that is completely. Has completely escalated to something that is not supposed to be, that it never should have been. [00:07:56] Speaker A: And you say things that you probably really did not mean, but you can't unsay them once they're said. And then that person remembers that for the. Like, you'll never remember anything else about the fight but the one awful thing they said to you. [00:08:09] Speaker B: But I remember where I was. We were out back. I was getting ready to do something with yard or something. But we're going to give you real practical ways to talk through hard things without tearing each other apart. And we're a living example of going through hard things. Absolutely. [00:08:27] Speaker A: And not tearing each other apart. [00:08:28] Speaker B: I don't think we ever did. Now, there were moments when you expressed your hurt and it was justified, but I don't think we ever purposely broke each other down. No, there was more. Great. [00:08:39] Speaker A: I don't think so either. And I think, to be honest with you, I'm not. I'm not saying that we're amazing, but I think. I think that it's a maturity thing. I think as you get older, you get a little wiser and you. You really honestly learn from your mistakes of how you handled things, maybe in a previous marriage or. Or you realize that, I don't know, you just get tired of fighting. [00:09:01] Speaker B: You do. [00:09:01] Speaker A: I mean, you're just like, I don't even have the. I don't even have the strength. So I'm just gonna just kind of be quiet or not let this escalate. Because when you have an anxiety disorder, like we both have, the last thing you need is to get all worked about something stupid. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Well, when you get worked up about something that is dumb, then it initiates your fight flight or freeze response. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And then that's when you say dumb things or do dumb things. [00:09:27] Speaker B: When you say dumb things, you get defensive. Like, I'm just protecting myself because you're saying hurtful things to me. So I'm gonna say hurtful things back just to make you feel bad, because you're making. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:38] Speaker B: And that's when the accusations come in. And then the famous word we figured out today, guys, is stonewalling. [00:09:45] Speaker A: Apparently I do this. [00:09:47] Speaker B: I don't know if I do or not. I don't know what the word means. [00:09:49] Speaker A: No, you don't. Stonewalling is like you shut down and you don't say anything. Okay? So, like. Like, you're. You're talking and you're. You're like. Let's just. I'm just giving an example. You are mad and you are telling me you're letting me have it, and I'm just sitting there, and instead of, like, getting defensive or accusatory with you, I actually just shut Down. And I don't talk to you. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:11] Speaker A: And I do that sometimes. And that's the freeze response. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Even though we have been through therapy together and we have been told time and time again that we need to communicate, it is still like pulling teeth. And sometimes I'm that way, you know, sometimes I don't want to talk either. [00:10:27] Speaker A: You don't really stonewall. You hide things. [00:10:31] Speaker B: I do. I have my emotions until it builds up. [00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah. In some way that is stonewalling. But you try to act like everything's okay. [00:10:39] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:41] Speaker A: I try to internally handle it so that I don't like. Because I'm always afraid. Am I overreacting? Because I have a tendency to be dramatic. Okay. Just a tiny smidge. And I'm thinking to myself, before I say something, I want to make sure I'm justified. [00:10:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:58] Speaker A: A lot of times I'm thinking that. Or I'm like, my feelings are hurt, but I'm embarrassed. So I don't want to tell you that. My feelings. So childish. I think I've said that before. You know, sometimes I don't even know what's wrong. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Right. And then whenever that happens, then the other person gets paranoid, paranoia sets in, and that's where the fight or flight response comes in. That's when accusations happen. Like, you never talk. [00:11:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:25] Speaker B: You know, talking to you is like going to the dentist. I have been guilty of saying that. [00:11:29] Speaker A: Like pulling teeth. [00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Pulling teeth without the Novocaine, which is the most fun part of going to this. [00:11:36] Speaker A: Now you're also. I've noticed, and I probably do. But I've noticed with you, you get defensive often, especially if. And I'm really bad about this. Really am. While we're admitting our faults, there are moments we never wake up at the same time. [00:11:52] Speaker B: We never do. [00:11:53] Speaker A: And, like, if one person sleeps late, the other one is up at, like, 4, and then the next day it'll flip. [00:11:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:59] Speaker A: And I don't know if we're getting beat up in our sleep by demons, and so the other one's sleeping late. You know what I mean? [00:12:04] Speaker B: Well, we both have learned that spiritual warfare is a very real thing. And. Go ahead. [00:12:09] Speaker A: Well, what's happening is the person that gets up first is alive and awake, and they've already had their coffee. And then the other one gets up, and then the. That one gets pounced on by the one who's awake. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. And here's. Here's a. Here's a morning whenever I'm up, before Shanna walks in the kitchen, she looks at me, she says, ah. She goes to her coffee, her little keurig. Her little keurig. She makes her stinky coffee. It's like dirt coffee. It's disgusting. And then she goes and she sits down in the chair beside me, she puts her legs up and that's it. There is no communication. [00:12:45] Speaker A: Takes a while, okay? [00:12:46] Speaker B: It takes a little while for the caffeine to. And I'm sitting there and even though I have done nothing wrong, even though I have been, in my opinion, I've been the perfect husband, I know there is no such thing, but in my mind I have come as close to it as I can. I'm automatically thinking that she's angry at me because I have a rule. And every morning that I wake up, I kiss her on the forehead. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Did you do that today? [00:13:12] Speaker B: I did not. Because she woke up after me. It was your time to do it. And you. [00:13:16] Speaker A: No, you just said I have a role. I kiss her on the forehead when. [00:13:19] Speaker B: I wake up after. You see, Deflecting. We're not going to talk about that. [00:13:24] Speaker A: One right now anyway. [00:13:26] Speaker B: But I always make a point to have some type of contact with her every morning. And I think that's a good way to get it started. Because there have been a few times when you have called me out saying you didn't do that, like, you know what, you're absolutely right. Because it kind of, it kind of lowers your defensive walls a little bit. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it does. And because there's mornings when I wake up and I have been bombarded all night with negative thoughts from the enemy and I'm already awake up thinking, oh my God, it's gonna happen again. Or I'm so mad about this. Let me think about this all day. You know which, it is getting better. [00:14:03] Speaker B: It is getting better. Yes. [00:14:06] Speaker A: It does take, I think, that defensiveness, because what would happen is I wouldn't even give you a chance to wake up. And I would be like, hey, there's this one thing, this detail I need to know. And then I ask you and you're like, what? Where did that come from? [00:14:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:23] Speaker A: And then you kind of get defensive and then that makes me mad and I can get accusatory. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:30] Speaker A: And it's this cycle that. And then before you know it, it's a full blown argument and it's like 8:30 in the morning and we're like, why are we fighting about? [00:14:38] Speaker B: Right. And that goes in to tone over topic. [00:14:44] Speaker A: Yeah. That's huge. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Okay, so people, watch it on. Don't approach your spouse with the tone of, I'm right, you're wrong, I'm going to lie into you like a blowtorch on wood and burn you up. Don't approach anyone that way because here's what's going to happen. Fight or flight. And usually if a man approaches a woman like that, there's going to be a fight and it's going to be an all day thing. You're going to break each other down and like we said previously, you're going to say things that you can't take nothing. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Right. And you probably didn't mean them. And you would say that later. You'd be like, I didn't even mean that. But. But subconsciously you knew how to hurt the person, so you pulled out that dagger. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:28] Speaker A: And you stabbed them. [00:15:29] Speaker B: Right. Go at it with a softer tone, honey. Yeah, you did something and I'm upset, you know, so can we talk? [00:15:37] Speaker A: I think approaching your spouse in a way where you're curious instead of accusatory, like, hey, I was just wondering, you, you did this thing and I don't. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean anything by it. But what, what did you mean by that? You know, like instead of accusing them, being more curious about it. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:15:55] Speaker A: And don't take everything so freaking personal. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Well, that's a hard thing to do because the person that you're talking to knows everything about you personally. Well, they should know everything about you personally. So it's kind of hard not to take what they say personally because you've given them heart and soul. But I think that if you come in it with a low volume and you pace your words, don't come out and just say, I know you did this. I can't stand you anymore. You just say, hey, you know, there's some things bothering and we need to talk. That way the defensive walls don't have a chance to go up. They stay down. And you're like, okay, can I have my coffee first? Okay. Don't approach Shanna without her first point of coffee. Wait. [00:16:38] Speaker A: I think you're the same way I kind of am. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Kind of am? Yeah. I don't, I don't like having deep conversations first thing in the morning because I can barely remember who I am. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Well, I think saying things like, you always, you know, you always do this or you always don't, or you, you did this, you did that, instead of like, that's the wrong way to Say it. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:17:00] Speaker A: It's more like, okay, I feel this way when you do this. [00:17:04] Speaker B: And I think it's really important that we avoid sarcasm and cutting humor. You know, like you're in the middle of a discussion or a disagreement about something. The last thing in the world you want to do is say something to them that's a derogatory way. You can't say something that they did that you found obnoxious in a humorous way. Because it's just not going to accomplish anything. It's just going to keep the argument going. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Don't you think that that's like a form of passive aggressiveness? [00:17:33] Speaker B: Absolutely, because I'm good about that. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Because I've done that. I've done that to you where it was like I was hurt. But instead of saying to you this makes me feel like this, I would say something sarcastic, right. And for whatever reason try to, try to dig at you that are just saying I am hurt. Like this makes me feel like this. [00:17:53] Speaker B: You know, and I've done that before myself. You know, I think every couple out there can agree that they are guilty of doing the same thing. But you know, I think the one thing that, that we can do is think before we speak. You know, like, what was that? Bear? Not Yogi the Bear, the Forest Service bear. Smokey the Bear. Don't help me prevent forest fire. Well, you're gonna help each other prevent an argument by coming at each other with this phone that is not necessarily melodic or whatever you call it, but it's gonna be soft. It's going to be non accusatory. It's not gonna be rapid voice, rapid talking. It's going to be just like we're talking to each other right now. You know, basic guys. We're all too old to do that. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Exactly, that's what I'm saying. Like I can't take the stress of it. I feel like I'm gonna pass out. [00:18:45] Speaker B: Don't even get me started on stress. There's a lot of it going on. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Like the anxiety and the panic attack is so real for me now. You told me yesterday at Walmart I had a panic attack. [00:18:53] Speaker B: She's not going to Walmart with me ever again. I love her. But no Walmart trips are out. [00:18:58] Speaker A: I can't take it anymore. Like my nerves are shot. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, and I'm pretty sure there are people out there who hate going to Walmart like you do. But me, I go and I kind of look around, I'll pick up a bottle of garlic and I'll compare it to the other bottle of garlic and I'm like, huh, why is this one better? And why is this more expensive? In all honesty, it's just garlic. [00:19:16] Speaker A: I am feeling like I'm in everyone's way. It's a phobia I have of being in crowds. I don't like the chaos. I don't like everybody on top of each other. I don't feel safe and I start acting stupid. [00:19:32] Speaker B: Yeah, the meltdown yesterday was pretty. [00:19:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. Yeah. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Anyway, yeah. And I think that the timing of it, like we talked about previously before coffee or when you first wake up, the timing for it is everything. You can't have a high stake thought during harshest moment. They're not going to go well. They're probably going to cause the argument to go longer and be more hurtful. [00:19:55] Speaker A: That's hard too. [00:19:56] Speaker B: It is hard. [00:19:56] Speaker A: You know, as a woman when those emotions get involved. If you tell me, okay, we need to wait to have this conversation until, you know, we're both calmed down, I'm going to be like, no, we're not. [00:20:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Like that's where I'm going to have to really, like I'm going to have to listen to the Lord and get out of my flesh. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:20:17] Speaker A: And I'm going to have to get away for a minute and pray and calm myself down and breathe. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. I agree. And there's a really good saying out there and it's called halt H A L and do not approach anyone or don't try to have deep thoughts when someone is hangry, hungry, angry, lonely or tired. Because those four things right there is just like adding fire starter. Yeah. [00:20:47] Speaker A: And if you know what, here's the thing though, I totally agree with that. And if you can remember that, that's great. Hungry, angry, lonely or tired. Here's the thing that a lot of people face is they're always one of those. Especially if you work all the time. [00:21:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:21:04] Speaker A: Like with you, you were working all the time. You were working 12 hour shifts. By the time you got home, you had been gone 14 hours, you were tired, it was 8 o' clock at night, you were gonna go to sleep. We would see each other like an hour before you go to sleep. And then I knew you had to get before. So how are you gonna have a conversation with someone when that's their schedule? You know what I mean? [00:21:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. [00:21:28] Speaker A: With a quality conversation that's not. [00:21:32] Speaker B: Well, and there's a good way that you can do is you can just take a pause, you know, take A pause. Don't shut down though, and say, hey, I want to talk to you about something. But can we do this sometime when we have more time together? Don't say, hey, we're going to talk about this right now. Because this has been bothering me all day and I'm like, girl, you have no idea how many honeys I've wiped, how many IVs I've had to give, how many broken arms I've had to send patients into the hospital. Stuff like that. You have no idea. But we're going to talk about why I left bread on the countertop. You know, so there's, there's a really important time in there where cool heads. How do they say that? Babe, Cool heads prevail. [00:22:16] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:22:17] Speaker B: I think it means, I think it's that way of saying it's cool heads prevail. And if you approach someone with a cool head, instead of letting it just stew all day, how can you leave the raisin bread on the countertop? And I'm like, well, I'm sorry I. [00:22:30] Speaker A: Left the bread out or the dirty. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Wet, or a wet towel sitting on the countertop. Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of like the house husband too around here, so don't even get me started on all that stuff. [00:22:44] Speaker A: Here's what I think would be useful. And I'm just gonna throw this in, but okay, so what if once a week you have an allotted time, you both, you guys are both off and you know, it's on this day, on this day we have a, we have a quality conversation every week in this, at this mom is where we can bring up anything that we feel. It's not like a gripe fest, but it's just more like, hey, this thing right here, I feel like if I don't tell you about this, I can tell it's festering in me and we need to have a conversation about it. [00:23:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And don't do it on date. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:17] Speaker B: Don't do it because you're locked in the car together. And where we live, there's no really good. Really. You know, there's like six year marriage restaurants around here, but no marriage nowhere where you want to take someone romantic. I mean, I don't think. [00:23:31] Speaker A: Not really. That Italian place was really good. We were shocked. [00:23:35] Speaker B: I ate like a pig. [00:23:36] Speaker A: It was so good. [00:23:37] Speaker B: But if you want to take someone nice, it's a 30 mile drive either way to get to the biggest town. So don't bring it up when you're in the car and you're driving, by. [00:23:46] Speaker A: The way, on our anniversary date. I would like to have a fight with you right now. I mean, it's like, really? [00:23:51] Speaker B: Seriously, I'm like, why are we doing this? Let's just go back home that we. [00:23:54] Speaker A: Can schedule the fight. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Couple hundred dollars on a meal, so. And that's when you regulate before you relate. You can't communicate well when you're in fight or flight. [00:24:08] Speaker A: I can't communicate at all. I stumble all over my words. [00:24:11] Speaker B: I do too. [00:24:12] Speaker A: And I sound stupid as a box of rocks. Like, I'm like, are you serious? [00:24:16] Speaker B: Yeah. When the stuttering comes in. And I do it too, when the stuttering comes in and you just say dumb things like, well, your hair's a mess. [00:24:25] Speaker A: Well, you can't think of anything. You're just kind of stuttering. [00:24:28] Speaker B: Right. Did you brush your teeth this morning? We've never said that. [00:24:32] Speaker A: Well, your breast stinks, right? [00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think it's really important. There's tools that you can use to kind of approach that conversation. You regulate your breathing. [00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:43] Speaker B: Inhale truth and you exhale all the anxiety. [00:24:46] Speaker A: Easier said than done. [00:24:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Just do breathing techniques right before you have the conversation or even before you go into the room where your spouse is. Just sit there for a minute and say, and even pray. Pray, lord, help me not kill the person. Or lord, help me approach this. Please help me approach this conversation with an open mind. And don't let the enemy get into the middle of it, because once the enemy is in, then it is. It's all down. [00:25:14] Speaker A: You gotta die to yourself. [00:25:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:25:16] Speaker A: You've got to die to yourself. And that's part of that daily dying that we have to do as a Christian part of it. And really, honestly, the way that the Lord, most of us anyway, I think one of the ways he transforms us and teaches us to die to self is to be in marriage. Because I don't mean that bad. But it's true. Like, think about how much you have to surrender daily, how much you have to sacrifice for that person, how much you have to forgive. It's one of the best tools God has absolutely. To teach us how to surrender and to be changed, to be transformed. [00:25:51] Speaker B: And there are some breathing techniques that you can do out there. You can do a four breath in, four breath out, call the four, seven, eight thing. And it's four in, four out, seven in, seven out, eight in and eight out. And that helps your. That helps your heart rate go down, that lowers the cortisol levels, that decreases your anxiety. And if that doesn't work for you if you're not in the deep breathing, Just take a quick walk. [00:26:16] Speaker A: A lot of people may not realize that when you get into fight or flight, the front part of your brain that you think rationally with is. Is basically not working. [00:26:25] Speaker B: Isn't that the reptilian. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Well, no, now you're in the reptilian brain. You're not using the front part of your brain that actually is rational and analytical and can think things through and can hold, you know, like, not just blurt something out. Now you're back in. You think somebody's trying to attack you and kill you. So, yeah, you're going into fight or flight because you think you're going to be killed by this. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Well, I think I'm gonna be attacked. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Which is what goes back to what you said. Well, if you approach someone and you do it calmly and you don't have a loud voice, your tone is pleasant, you're not making, you know, gestures that would scare the person. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Right. Well, I think it's important that if you see that this, the person that you wanted to talk to is absolutely having a meltdown, don't approach them like that right now. Let them calm down. Because you know what? The argument's not going to go anywhere. You know, the conversation is not going to be there. The problem, like you just said, the problem is going to be there in an hour. So in that meantime, man, take a walk, you know, go do something. Some type of physical exertion like we both like to go to the gym. And it helps you burn off all that excess anxiety. So when you get back to the house, you're like, okay, can we restart this conversation or can we have a conversation about something? You know, don't let your anxiety rule your mind because it will ruin. [00:27:49] Speaker A: Well, and you can't hear God in that state either. So you're going to find yourself saying things that are just horrible. And you know. So it's like you didn't mean because you are in survival mode. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:28:03] Speaker A: So you're doing. Think about it this way. You're doing anything and everything you can to kill the bears chasing you. [00:28:09] Speaker B: Right? [00:28:09] Speaker A: And what does Mark ever it takes to get away from the bear? [00:28:12] Speaker B: Absolutely. What does Mark three two five, three twenty five. [00:28:16] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:28:16] Speaker B: A house divided. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Can't stand. [00:28:19] Speaker B: It cannot stand. And that's what the enemy wants. That's how the enemy has been so successful, is he has come in and he has divided the house. Someone in my family, they have totally separate lives. She has hers. He has his. And there's nothing, very rarely is there everything in the middle that they do together. You know, so some people think that. [00:28:43] Speaker A: That'S a marriage, that's not a marriage. And I'm not saying, I'm not trying to, you know, down, downplay that like it's not a valid marriage. But at the same time I think, okay, like that's not what I picture when I think of a biblical Christ centered marriage. It's not. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Now, you know, you're my best friend and, and you know that I like to do things like I got, I like to get into a 10 foot kayaking. I will propel myself in the most snake and alligator infested waters in East Texas. You don't like that, so you don't go with me. [00:29:14] Speaker A: I mean I would, but I would be scared, but I would go. [00:29:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So you gotta find things that you like to do together. She's my best friend and you know, we do things that we enjoy doing together. And I think that that's an important part of keeping the anxiety down, agitation down. Because when you're both happy, when you got, when you got feel good dopamine circuit through your system, then you can talk things out. [00:29:39] Speaker A: And well, you know, when you're, when you're living separate lives like that, it's not a week, okay. You're not, you're not a together entity. You're like this separate thing who occasionally you come together a little bit, but that's not what this is about. And so it's so easy to go, oh, like the other person is the enemy. [00:29:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:58] Speaker A: Because you see him that way because you don't see you guys as one. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And that's what, like you said, that's where the enemy wants you is a separate house is so easy to break up. And we both have been there. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:11] Speaker B: You know, a separate house where people don't even like to be around each other. Like just don't touch me, you give me the chills. Or the heebie jeebies. That's where Satan wants it because that's one more union that God put together that is not together. [00:30:24] Speaker A: That's like your marriage has a purpose. And it's not, it's not just about you and your spouse being happy and just getting everything you want in life. Like your marriage. You two together have a purpose for his kingdom. And the enemy knows that if he can destroy your marriage, can destroy the purpose that God put it in place for. And so there could literally be all kinds of fallout from that could be your children be affected. Their children. Yeah, it could be a generational family are affected, or whoever you were supposed to touch with your marriage is not going to be touched. And, and, but you don't see that when you're in it. You just see you against the other person because he's divided you. And I think that's where you have to go back to. And I've said this before, it's not me versus you, it's us versus the problem. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. And, you know, and I think I remember when we first got married, we always said we were never going to go to bed angry at each other. Well, we failed at that. I mean, I mean, once or twice. And that. I mean, especially since last year, you know, when things were so raw last year, sleeping on the couch. But, but I think that. I think that it's really important to remind people since we've gone through all this training and all this counseling, it's really important not to go to bed angry. Do not say something harsh and slam the bedroom door and go sleep in the guest room. Because those words are there in the air. Like you said earlier. You say something you can't take back, and they have all night long to sit there and they'll remember the rest of their. Marinate, absolutely marinate on those words. And then the next morning, bam, the argument's right back up again. Because the last thing you said to that person was anger. [00:32:05] Speaker A: It is like a wildfire, and it consumed the entire house. [00:32:10] Speaker B: It's possible to have a disagreement without disconnect. You know, it's very possible for someone to not agree on something with their spouse without being a total disconnect on it. Always approach it with an open mind. Because who knows, maybe the person that you're talking to, trying to push your point on, may be right about something. Maybe right about you approach them with this and they're like, well, you know, let's talk about that for a minute. And then once you're. Once you have that discussion, then you realize the spouse is correct. [00:32:42] Speaker A: Well, one of the things that we were learning about, and we can talk about this because this is not exclusive to that program, is that tactile impact. And so apparently this is something that the FBI used or uses. [00:32:58] Speaker B: Yeah, they called it tactical. No. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it's tactile empathy. And it's really interesting because they use it in hostages situations where they're negotiating. And what it basically is, is as the person, okay, so, like, you and I are having a disagreement, and instead of me listening and Already formulating my response to you, which is going to be probably overly dramatic. I'm actually listening with empathy to you. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:33:25] Speaker A: What you're saying to really understand what you're saying. Not just so I can formulate a response and hit you with a barbed wire, but actually like, oh, okay, I actually see what you're saying. And that's how we're supposed to approach communication with each other. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. I just had a really good point and it is just gone. [00:33:46] Speaker A: I probably talked too much. See, that's tactile. You were listening to me. You're saying like how I feel about this. [00:33:51] Speaker B: I was listening to your melodious voice and how right you are and it just totally distracted me. I'm so sorry. [00:33:59] Speaker A: It's a whole different way of communicating. It's a different approach because you're not always trying to be heard. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Because somebody has to listen. [00:34:07] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:08] Speaker A: And it's listening to understand, not to the whole other level. Like, yeah, what is the person saying with their words, but what are they saying with their tone? What are they saying with their gesture? [00:34:20] Speaker B: And I think that anytime you approach a conversation with I'm right and you're wrong and you keep that belief the entire time you guys are talking, then it's not it to a good conversation, it's going to break down. [00:34:33] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I was thinking about our relationship with the Lord. [00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:38] Speaker A: And you know, like, I have gone to him like an idiot, like a four year old who's mad because somebody took my crayon or something. And I met him and I'm screaming and I'm blaming him. Do you know that he's never been like, you need to shut up, Shanna. [00:34:51] Speaker B: He never has. [00:34:52] Speaker A: He's actually just been like, come here, come, let us reason. [00:34:56] Speaker B: Right. [00:34:56] Speaker A: It's okay. Let me show you what happened. You know, I'm listening to you. I know you're hurting. I understand. And that's what you're doing with that. And then you're actually like, I understand how you feel. [00:35:07] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:35:09] Speaker A: And I think that's different. [00:35:11] Speaker B: It gets a lot better response. I know it gets better response out of me because if you approach me angry, I'm instantly going to get angry. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:18] Speaker B: If you approach me calmly like, hey, man, you know, let's talk about this. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Right? [00:35:22] Speaker B: I'll be kind of wary at first. I'm not even gonna lie. I'll be kind of wary because, you know, it's just fight or flight trying to kick in. But after the conversation, when things are better and we agree or you know, we don't agree, but we don't disconnect. We just, we agree to disagree, which rarely happens with us. Usually one or the other, you know. [00:35:43] Speaker A: Wins, one of the other wins, one. [00:35:45] Speaker B: Of the other wins. But we can't view it as winning. [00:35:48] Speaker A: I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. [00:35:50] Speaker B: So, but I'm going to ask you guys to do something, is answer one question for me. You can put it in the comments if you want or you can email it. [00:35:58] Speaker A: If it's on YouTube, you can comment. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's, what's one change you can make this week? Communicate with your spouse better or with more grace? I think that's really important for us to kind of meditate on it or think on it and wonder and think, okay, what have I done? How do I approach my spouse or my significant other or my girlfriend or boyfriend, whatever you got, and say, okay, I know I have to be one way at work. I have to be stressed at work. I have to be harsh with people that I work with. I had to let them know who the boss is. Are you talking to them the same way that you're talking to people at work? Because if you do, that's not going to work. [00:36:44] Speaker A: I've always wondered how. Side note, I'm always wondering how Trump talks to Melania. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Oh, well, you know, Melania, I probably. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Have to edit this out. [00:36:56] Speaker B: You shouldn't have bought that five thousand dollar Louis Vuitton. [00:36:59] Speaker A: Anyway. [00:37:00] Speaker B: Anyway, it was a very bad thing. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:37:03] Speaker B: God bless him. [00:37:04] Speaker A: Okay, so you're asking them to ask, what's one change you can make so we communicate with more grace. Grace, that would be a great word. I also think some, some good questions or phrases. Let's. I think these are phrases you could memorize that I need to do. I know this sounds really, almost like you're going to memorize that. Are you serious? But you know, in the heat of the moment, like if you had some things tucked away in your little arsenal of nice things to say instead of mean things to say, right? Like you could pull these out and it's things like, you know, how can we fix this together? [00:37:37] Speaker B: Right? [00:37:38] Speaker A: Like, how can we fix it together? Because what I'm saying with that is, I'm saying, okay, it's us against the problem, right? I'm not attacking you. I want to fix this together with you. [00:37:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:48] Speaker A: Or we both want peace. [00:37:52] Speaker B: Yeah, we both want peace. And just because you have a disagreement or just because you talk to someone about things doesn't mean that it has to be fixed at that moment. You know, usually we have resolution. Most of the time we do have conflict resolution. Pretty, you know, after a few moments of us talking back and forth, we were resolved. [00:38:10] Speaker A: But, you know, I know, I know why, though, because I will say this, that both of us and we. This is not even something we said, but it's something that needs to be said. [00:38:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Both of us have a relationship with God, that we can hear him. So if I'm in the wrong, the Holy Spirit saying, right, and we got. [00:38:29] Speaker B: To listen to that still too. [00:38:30] Speaker A: Listen to it. Right. And that's hard to do that when you're in. So if you take that moment, you're calming down. You're not. You're realizing it's us against the problem. I know we both want peace here. Maybe then you can hear the Lord and he can tell you, hey, you know you're wrong about this. [00:38:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:38:46] Speaker A: If it comes from the Lord, it's like different than it comes from your spouse. [00:38:50] Speaker B: It does. Well, you know, the Lord is calm, the Lord is patient, the Lord is kind. And we're supposed to be as godlike as we can. We'll never achieve that agape love. You know, we can work towards it and the struggle is real. Fellas, ladies, I understand that, but we're supposed to be Christ and love, patient and kindness. That's. You know, Jesus is one commandment was love one another. And I think it was Paul that said love patient. Or is that Peter? [00:39:16] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's fault. First Corinthians 13. As a matter of fact, right before you think you're about to just let somebody have it, read 1st Corinthians 13. [00:39:23] Speaker B: And pray and pray. Lord, don't let me kill this man. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Well, just. Okay. Love is patient. Love is kind. [00:39:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:32] Speaker A: Doesn't keep record of wrongs, which I think is something that doesn't come natural. Most of us have a record tally in our head. [00:39:39] Speaker B: We keep it. [00:39:40] Speaker A: I can tell you every time you did something to me and, you know, we all do it right and it's wrong. [00:39:46] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:39:47] Speaker A: But this agape love doesn't keep record. [00:39:50] Speaker B: It does not. [00:39:51] Speaker A: And so that's why I'm saying you have to die to yourself. Because in order for you to make your marriage work, you have to live. The love that has to be there has to be this love that God put there. It can't be this fleshly self serving love. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Right. It cannot be selfish. Love is not selfish. Love is the most unselfish act that you can do. If you've got Selfishness in your heart and you're loving someone, that's not love. It's something totally different. And you need to really work on that aspect of that because it's, it's just like cancer. It's just gonna faster and it's just gonna spread. So, yes, absolutely. [00:40:30] Speaker A: This has been fun and I don't. [00:40:31] Speaker B: Know, this has been a good one. [00:40:32] Speaker A: I don't know if people listening to this can relate, but I feel like everybody has communication problems. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Oh, I know I do, man. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure in your marriage, but not just in your marriage, but in relationships, these same strategies, they work right across the board. I think we should just do like a recap of them. So, like, we talked about the things that, you know, the first thing we said was don't have a conversation like this in a high stress moment. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Right? Right. [00:41:05] Speaker A: Then we said, watch your tone. Make sure that your tone, that you are approaching it even if you're angry. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Right? [00:41:12] Speaker A: It's going to be so hard. [00:41:15] Speaker B: Right? [00:41:16] Speaker A: Just like, okay, Lord, I'm gonna need you. You know, like, help me. Like. [00:41:23] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:23] Speaker A: You know, when I get mad, like, it's, it's. I can only see red. And the only way I can stop is I have to calm down. I have to go away. For me, I have to go away and calm down. [00:41:35] Speaker B: I totally agree. [00:41:36] Speaker A: I think knowing, knowing that, but also just knowing the way that you approach your spouse and the tone that you use, that could make or break the conversation. [00:41:44] Speaker B: It will break it. Because don't be angry. We're both going to be hurt. [00:41:49] Speaker A: And your volume level. Listen, because you and I were talking about this earlier, I said, I said, I don't think you realized for a long time that you and I would be talking or we would kind of start bickering and you would get real loud and you would start talking over the top of me. [00:42:06] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:42:07] Speaker A: And then I would start screaming to be heard. [00:42:10] Speaker B: That's only happened a couple of times. [00:42:11] Speaker A: It did. And I'm like, would you just shut up? I'm like, why do you do that? [00:42:19] Speaker B: Just let me talk, please. [00:42:22] Speaker A: Why do you do that? [00:42:23] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Was that like your defense mechanism? [00:42:26] Speaker B: I think, yeah, I think that's just defense back there. Because I think that if I talk loud enough and over you enough, then you're gonna actually instantly just fall in love with what I'm saying. [00:42:33] Speaker A: Really? [00:42:33] Speaker B: And you're gonna believe everything. [00:42:34] Speaker A: I think it's like a bear standing up and roaring, you know, like, shut up. [00:42:38] Speaker B: It wasn't Being like that cocaine bear movie. Just. [00:42:41] Speaker A: What? Cocaine bear? [00:42:43] Speaker B: Yeah, the cocaine bear thing. [00:42:45] Speaker A: All right, all right. [00:42:46] Speaker B: So in a couple of weeks, I think we've got one more podcast before we. My wife has got me going on a great little bitty ship in a great big ocean to say that I don't have anxiety about seeing the movie Jaws 13 times when I was a kid and being in the ocean on a cruise ship. [00:43:04] Speaker A: It's going to be awesome. [00:43:06] Speaker B: It's going to be fantastic. [00:43:07] Speaker A: The Royal Caribbean. We're going to Cozumel. And Maya, I think. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Do not watch. Do not watch this show. Poop ship. It was the poop crew. Don't watch the poop cruise before you go on it. I have refrained for it. It keeps popping on my suggested don't watch it things because it's just going to give me more anxiety. But anyway, prayers would be most welcome because there is supposed to be a hurricane. [00:43:35] Speaker A: I don't want to talk about it. [00:43:36] Speaker B: If it is, it'll get canceled. [00:43:37] Speaker A: We'll speak against that hurricane. And Jesus. [00:43:41] Speaker B: That's why I've told you when we got married, I am a mountains man. [00:43:45] Speaker A: You don't like bears either? Or snakes. [00:43:47] Speaker B: Well, I can shoot a bear. You know, I got a spray for a bear. We're gonna shoot a shark. [00:43:51] Speaker A: Well, you're not gonna be in the ocean with it. [00:43:53] Speaker B: And don't watch 47 meters down either, because that is terrifying. And that was your idea. [00:43:57] Speaker A: That was your idea. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Okay, see, here we go. All right, look, everyone, thank you so much for listening today. Today. I meant tonight. [00:44:07] Speaker A: We're wrapping up early. We're doing 45 minutes today. That's pretty nice. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Wow, that is pretty good for us. I apologize. It was kind of fast paced tonight. It's our first one in a while and you said, all right, you're driving. And. Yeah. Anyway, I hope that everyone out there has a blessed day. Blessed night. [00:44:22] Speaker A: Make sure you, like, follow, subscribe the podcast wherever you hear it. [00:44:28] Speaker B: Yeah, leave us a review, too, because it really helps the algorithm and don't. [00:44:31] Speaker A: Let it be a bad one. Please give us a good one if. [00:44:35] Speaker B: It'S below 4 stars. And keep opinions of yourself, man. I'm just saying. No, let us know if there's something that we need to work, you know, if there's something wrong with the mic level, if there's something wrong with the way we say things. I know that we have a tendency to walk over the top of each other sometimes. I've got. I think I've gotten better about that. Working on textile empathy, working on that technical feel. Empty. But. But I think that. I think we're doing well. I know there are some things we got to work on as new podcasters, so just leave us some suggestions. You know, and like I said, you can't hurt my feelings. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Cloaked in kindness and grace. [00:45:11] Speaker B: And grace would be nice, but, you know, being 18 year military veteran, harsh is whatever. So anyway, Veterans 988, if anything's going on in your life, or shoot us an email and I will gladly call. All right, guys, you have a blessed day. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Yep. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Don't let it grow Cold in the night? [00:45:45] Speaker A: Cause silence falls? And darkness grows? [00:45:50] Speaker B: When my heart.