Blindsided By Betrayal: Finding God in the Ruins

[00:00:15] Speaker A: Catch us little foxes. They're feasting on our own. Here we are. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Here we are. Episode two of the podcast. My name is Michael and this is my lovely wife Shanna Channa. The last name there can't do that. That's the. What almost said our last name. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Why can't you say our last name? [00:00:44] Speaker B: I can't. Michael Williams. I am Michael Williams. That is most definitely Shannon Williams. And we are so glad that you are here to listen to our second episode. So funny story. We had the episode. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:57] Speaker B: And the Apple gods decided that they wanted to eat that, so now we are switching to all Microsoft stuff. [00:01:10] Speaker A: No, we're not. Actually, I think that was the third time. This is the third time we're recording this episode. So apparently it's not what God wanted, so. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Apparently not. But you know what? We're doing better now. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Not doing video. [00:01:23] Speaker B: We're not doing video. We decided to get away from video. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah, we may come back to that later once we figure out what the heck we're doing. [00:01:28] Speaker B: But, well, our Internet service out here in the boondock, it's not the greatest. So we have to figure out a way to get that a little bit boosted up before we try to do video because it would take it like, what, all night long to upload one video? So it's not cool in this world. [00:01:44] Speaker A: But anyway, nobody cares about any of that. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Nobody cares. [00:01:49] Speaker A: We get down to business. Episode two, episode one. We talked about your. The story. Really more from your viewpoint. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah, really more from my viewpoint about what I was going through, how everything affected me, my mental health and well being and that I was way down the road. I was not walking with the Lord at all. So. But on this episode we are going to talk about how it affects you. Right. Your reaction, maybe the consequences of the. [00:02:23] Speaker A: Accident that I did, how I survived. [00:02:27] Speaker B: It, how she survived. I know that it was, it was difficult while I was at the hospital taking a mental break, you were here dealing with the att. So. And I want you guys to know, just because I make light of it now doesn't mean that I don't take it seriously throughout all this. We have both taken each other very seriously throughout all of this. And forgive my humor, I do tend to let that show off. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Well, we decided to call this one Blindsided by Betrayal. And then a tagline on that is finding God in the ruins. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Because that's definitely what happened. I was blindsided by the whole thing. But then also actually I would say God found me in the ruins of it and carried me through it, but I'll let you shoot the questions up. [00:03:29] Speaker B: Okay. [00:03:29] Speaker A: That's the best way. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Okay. So I guess the first thing that I want to know is that what were you doing? Where were you at whenever, how were we doing as a couple? In your mind, how are we doing as a couple when all of this came about? [00:03:46] Speaker A: I thought we were doing okay, considering that what we were going through. We were going through so much. I think we talked about that last time. Just the weight and the stress of our finances were so hard. And then we sold our house and moved. So there was stress of moving cities, moving 45 minutes from where we had lived before, trying to figure out what in the heck we're supposed to be doing. Why are we moving? God. You know, we just felt like we were supposed to, and it just. You know, it just didn't really make sense. But at the same time, I felt like we both felt like this is what we're supposed to do. So I thought, you know, when you take all that into consideration, I thought we were doing okay. I knew that you were super stressed. I could tell you were very. Just weird acting. I mean, just super anxious all the time. Just to the point where, like, even right now, like, it's hard for you to be still. You could not be still. [00:04:44] Speaker B: It was worse back then. [00:04:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. And if I tried to talk to you, you would constantly interrupt. I think we got in a couple of fights. I'd be like, would you please just stop interrupting me? And I didn't know that that was, like, part of the PTSD response. You know, you were in fight or flight, and I just didn't realize that that's what was going on. And you were having these, literally, anxiety attacks, panic attacks happening every morning. You were waking up, and you were like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm having an anxiety attack. And so I would just be, like, praying with you. Because at that point, we had started the. The praying together. I hope that we talked about that last time. I think we did. Yeah. So we had started that maybe, like, in July. And this was. I want to say this. This started happening. Well, the whole thing fell apart. September 20th is when I found out. Was on your birthday, when I found out. So that week had started with. And I think we talked about this last time. You know, I had gotten some weird Facebook messages, and then I started getting phone calls, and I'm just, like, dismissing them because I'm thinking there's no way. Right. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Well, I had told you there was no way. [00:05:49] Speaker A: Right. You made up the elaborate story about. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Oh, God, which one? [00:05:54] Speaker A: I don't know. I'm talking about, like, why these. These. This woman was coming after you at work, and you made up with a story about it and. And I believed you. [00:06:03] Speaker B: I'm proud of. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah. For sure. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Any of it. Any of it was special. [00:06:08] Speaker A: Well, I. I just believed you because you had not given me any indication ever. [00:06:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:15] Speaker A: That. That you were that kind of person or that you were living a double life. I think, though, we see what we want to see in somebody. [00:06:23] Speaker B: Well, we'd only been married for two years. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker B: And we were still in that. Yeah, three years. I guess we were still kind of in the honeymoon phase. [00:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:32] Speaker B: We were still in that new marriage where everything is great, everything is fine, everybody's happy. But, you know, we first got married, all we did was we went straight to work. We took a couple of days off at the house, and then I traveled. You hit the ground running with your new business and everything just kind of took off. And then the next year, we moved here. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And third year, we were three is when we moved in here. And that's when I started really feeling like, okay, something is not quite right. But I just thought, well, we're just stressed. We're just tired. He's working a lot about. And you hated your job, and you talked about it all the time. So I thought, okay, he hates his job. And we were already talking about getting you out of that profession. You were sick of it. We were already making plans. I just didn't realize how much you hated that job and how much it was really feeding into, I think, the problems you were having, the addiction you were having. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Not only did it provide a place to do it, it also was that you hated the job so much that you had to, I think, like, find ways to not think about how much you hated being there. [00:07:48] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:48] Speaker A: You know, it was like, I need some excitement because I hate this. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Okay, so we move in. September 20th was my birthday. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Where was the Christian podcast? [00:08:08] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:08] Speaker A: Wrong podcast. [00:08:10] Speaker B: But we. We had. You had bought a. Tickets to a play. [00:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah, we were going to go to. [00:08:17] Speaker B: The play and we went. We got dressed early and like, hey, let's go by Dairy Queen and let's get some ice cream. And we went and got the ice cream. Well, we didn't get the ice cream. [00:08:27] Speaker A: We did get the ice cream, but we didn't. I didn't. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, we didn't need it. Neither one of us did. So we got a phone call while we Were waiting in line. Someone who I had been having an emotional affair with. And you want to. [00:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I went immediately into, I think, freeze. You know what I mean? Because really, when you go into to that, it's fight, fight, or freeze. And for me, it was free because I couldn't. It's like I couldn't accept it. It's like I couldn't. It was just too much. I just. I would rather just like, not believe that it was true or not real. And so it took me. Took me a while to even accept that it happened or that it was true because it just was so unbelievably shocking. [00:09:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:16] Speaker A: And the betrayal was just not anything I was expecting. And not to mention I had been through it before. So that made it even triply awful. That's not even really a word. Whatever it was, it was like the whole world. It was just like. You know, people say the rugs pulled out from under your feet. It's like the whole world was pulled out. [00:09:40] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:40] Speaker A: And I did not know what was real, and I did not know what was true, and I didn't know who I was married to. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Right. So we come back home and obviously we did a lot of intense talk about everything. And then I was sleeping on the couch. And you had been receiving text messages. As far as communication goes, was that that night? [00:10:09] Speaker A: Well, no. So what happened was this particular woman sent me screenshots. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, screenshots. [00:10:17] Speaker A: And so because it happened so quickly, I wasn't able to piece it together while we were in the truck. And when we got home, we fought. It's like I had to, like, go back and reread everything because I was like, what just happened? And so I'm piecing it together and I'm realizing what had happened. And then that's when I came and looked up and we fought. I mean, we just kept fighting all night. [00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And the next morning, we didn't get much sleep that day or that night. That night or the night after. But I had gotten up and I had. I had been. I think I told you that I had to go by the yard. [00:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Which we told that last time. All of that. [00:11:01] Speaker B: And then that's when the. You want to lead up there. What were you going through at that time and what were your emotions? [00:11:09] Speaker A: I got to be honest. So the first. So when I got off the phone with the guy who confirmed what you had been doing at the. Which we don't even know how much that is true, because we don't. We just don't yeah. So anyway, got off the phone with him. I called you immediately, and I said, I know everything. [00:11:28] Speaker B: And you said, catholic, I'm out. Yeah. [00:11:30] Speaker A: You said, okay, I'll come get my stuff. And I said, where are you gonna go? And you said, I'm gonna move with my mom. I said, oh, really? Your mom? And you're like, yeah. And you said, I still have one more part to play. And I said, what? You know, but I knew. I knew what you meant. And that's right after that is when you turned off your location under. So. But at first I was pissed. At first I was like, okay, go get your stuff. I can get out. I don't give a crap. [00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:03] Speaker A: I mean, that's where I was at. I was like, okay, bye. [00:12:07] Speaker B: And it was deserved. [00:12:08] Speaker A: But then I started feeling. I started feeling panicky and scared because I thought, okay, this has escalated beyond whatever had happened. I knew at that point that you were contemplating suicide. So I had to, like, get out of my flesh and be like, okay, Lord, show me what I need to do. And that's when I got, you know, the police involved. And I actually. My mom. I had to get someone else involved. I got my mom involved. And we found you and all that. But as. As it was going down and we're at the graveyard with you, I am. I am literally in intercession, but I feel numb. It's like, I would love to tell people that, hey, I felt God, he was so right there with me, but I did not. At that time, I was terrified because all I could think about was, oh, my God, if he kills himself, I gotta live with that the rest of my life because I contributed to it. Because I made you feel worse because of the way I was talking to you. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Well, I think you get some grace there, Shay, because of that. It's kind of hard to be merciful to someone who just hurt you. You're a human being, and you're going through those emotions that, oh, my God, this guy that I thought the rest of my life with is a jerk, and he's a cheater, a coward. So, I mean, you get some grace there. [00:13:27] Speaker A: I think it was. It was more than that, because I didn't even know who you were. I was kind of like, okay, whoever I thought I was married to is not who I'm married to, but I was. [00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah. There were a lot of things I never told you about myself. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And I didn't know that PTSD was triggering all this. So in my mind, I'm so confused. I Mean confusion, just being overwhelmed, not being. Just. I don't know if anybody can relate to something at that Nate. Of that level of catastrophe in your life, but you. You just. You don't know what the heck is going on. And I couldn't even think straight. I mean, I would just. I would get to eat. I would forget to. I would. I wouldn't go all day and not drink water. I would. This went on for a week where I would just. I wasn't sleeping. It was horrible. It's the worst sick feeling I've ever had in my life. In the pit of your stomach where you feel like. You're so nauseous and you feel like May stabbed you and you don't know what to do. I hate it. Oh, God. I don't ever want to feel that way again. So that was that day. [00:14:36] Speaker B: That was the 21st. [00:14:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And as I. You know, as my mom's with me, and she's not saying anything negative, she's just trying to be there for me. She's not running you down or anything like that. We're just. We're just praying at this point. We're interceding. We're begging God to spare your life. And, you know, we had tried to talk you down, but you wouldn't. You ran. You just backed truck up and left. And I couldn't chase you because the cops got there, because I would have kept chasing you and talking to you. I think I probably could have talked, but, you know, everybody's like, that's so dangerous. But I knew that you wouldn't hurt me. I just. I knew that, you know, I knew that you wouldn't shoot me with the. So anyway, that day was the worst day of my life. Of your life? What you. What you remember of it, anyways? I remember a lot more than you do, probably. [00:15:27] Speaker B: Yeah. I blacked out after I hung up. Then when I got to the graveyard, it just comes and kind of flashes, you know? Yeah. It was just a. [00:15:43] Speaker A: And you tried to tell me, so. So I talked to you multiple times on the phone while you had the gun in the truck. And the cops are surrounding the car, and they're texting me, and they're telling me to stop talking to you. I said, I'm not calling him. He's calling me, and I'm gonna answer the phone if he calls me. You cannot make me not do that, because I knew if I didn't answer it, that would actually make it worse. Well. [00:16:06] Speaker B: And I don't understand what their meaning was behind you're making it worse. I don't understand what that was. [00:16:11] Speaker A: Well, so one of the times that you talked to me, this is where I started, I think, to have a heart change and to start. Start to understand what just happened. You said to me, you started talking about how you had this need for adrenaline and that. That all this was about adrenaline. And you never cared about any of these women you were talking to, that they never mattered to you. And even a minute ago, you said it was an emotional affair, which really isn't probably the right word, because that would imply that you actually cared about these. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. [00:16:46] Speaker A: It was more just like a. Yeah, you were just. You were getting adrenaline. And I don't think people can understand that because they're automatically going to think, oh, well, you must have had feelings. No, you didn't. You literally. It was like a drug to you. [00:17:00] Speaker B: For a veteran who has post traumatic stress disorder, it's not about. It's about getting the adrenaline diet that you live with for months at a time while you're. While I was overseas, you know. [00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:13] Speaker B: So it wasn't about an emotional attachment at all. It wasn't about. [00:17:19] Speaker A: That's what confused me because. [00:17:21] Speaker B: Well, y' all think emotionally. Yeah. [00:17:23] Speaker A: When you were here with me, you seemed happy with me. You seemed in love with me. And so that's where the confusion for me was. I don't understand, because he's. You seemed like you wanted to be with me in your. [00:17:35] Speaker B: I did. I did. But things had just got so out of control around that time. It was just. It had snowballed up to a size. It was just not maintainable. And I had been trying to get myself out of it. [00:17:51] Speaker A: You know, you've been bargaining with God, and God's like, nope, I did. [00:17:56] Speaker B: Right. Okay. So the graveyard. I give my. Unload my revolver, I rack around out of the slide, and I give my gun to a police officer. They put me in handcuffs. And then I guess all y' all came and saw me. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah, me and my mom and Allie was. And we just told you we loved you. We hugged you. You were cuffed, right? You were. You were completely out of it. I've never seen anybody like that. I mean, it was a click snap. [00:18:32] Speaker B: I had a commandment breakdown. So tell me what you were going through and what your emotions were. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to keep it together because this is a hard thing to talk about, knowing that I put my family through this, that I put you through this is. It's hard so just bear with me here, okay? So the police officers tell you that they're gonna take me to the hospital for evaluation, Right? [00:19:01] Speaker A: And they told me I couldn't. I couldn't come up there. There was no point. So I came home, and I was just kind of sitting here with my mom and Allie, my daughter. And then all of a sudden, I get a text from. I think Maria is her name. [00:19:16] Speaker B: Yeah, Maria. [00:19:17] Speaker A: And she was like, hey, where are you? I'm like, well, you guys told me I wasn't gonna be able to see him, you know, because you're saying I make it worse, but you were asking for me. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:26] Speaker A: And so I went up there, and I'm thinking to myself, what in the heck am I gonna say? How am I. Because, you know, I can't act right? Like, you know how I am. I'm very like, what you see is what you get with me. I'm not an actress. So I thought, he's gonna know that I am overwhelmed. I'm ticked. I'm hurt. I'm confused, you know? And before I went in heaven, Biz came out. The. The police officer. Officer that. Oh, he wasn't a police officer. [00:19:54] Speaker B: He's special operations. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Yes. He's basically the guy that talked you down and saved your life. God. Through him. Saved your life. And he said, I just want to talk to you for a second before you go back there. I want to see where you are, because we don't want to send you back there if you're sick. And at first, when he first started talking to me, I. What? I was like, you know what? And the longer I talked to him and Maria, they kind of just. I softened up, and I started getting more. I don't know, just. [00:20:21] Speaker B: Well, you spoke. You spoke to someone who had been through it. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Yes. And he said to me, because this is what. This is one of the other things I remember that changed everything for me. I said. He said to me, I know it's not fair what he did to you. He said, but it's not fair what happened to us when we were in combat. [00:20:41] Speaker B: Right? [00:20:41] Speaker A: And I thought, okay, now I'm starting to piece it together that what. What's happened is a byproduct of. Yes, you had a decision. Okay? But I truly believe that if you had not had PTSD to the level you had, and it had, you know, hadn't been treated, you didn't know how to deal with it, I do not think you would have done it. These things that you had been doing. [00:21:02] Speaker B: I don't well, it's my fault that we got to that point because I'd always thought that I just had it under control, you know. But before you and I met, I was single and. And when I'd have a moment, I just go away for a weekend somewhere, you know, or I would drink a lot of alcohol or something like that. So, I mean, I self medicated a certain way, you know. But then when I quit drinking alcohol. [00:21:27] Speaker A: Which you did. [00:21:28] Speaker B: Which I did. Before any of this happened. Months before any of this happened. [00:21:32] Speaker A: Well, you weren't drinking that much anyway. It's not like you drink a glass of wine here or there. [00:21:37] Speaker B: But I didn't have anything to kind of keep those memories down because most of my drinking that I do was at night right before I went to bed because, God, I hated going to sleep because the dreams and the flashbacks were so horrible. [00:21:54] Speaker A: And also, I will say, you weren't on any kind of antidepressants or anxiety medication. You were totally against it being a nurse. You were like, I don't want any of that crap. I don't believe in it. Right, but they gave you a ton of stuff. [00:22:10] Speaker B: They gave me a lot of, man. They knocked me out for a few days. [00:22:12] Speaker A: But you had to. And they told me, they said it's a process for him to come down off of this. It's going to take him a while. [00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:19] Speaker A: You know, as far as like, I'm talking about like the, the snap. When you snap, you're way up here and it takes time for you to come down. [00:22:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:27] Speaker A: So. [00:22:27] Speaker B: So I know they're watching me like a hawk. When I first got there, they put me on a really good ward. I mean, they put me on a good unit. They didn't put me on the. Where I probably should have gone was the worst. The psychiatric guy. If I was as screwed as everybody says I was, I probably should have been there. But through the Lord's intervention, they put me on a really mellow unit. Nobody was. I think that was the best place because it was mellow. All the patients were very, very friendly. They were sick. You know, I'm thinking, what in the world am I doing here? And. [00:23:04] Speaker A: And I couldn't get to you and I couldn't talk to you and I. All I could do is just wait for you to call me and just sit on my phone, you know, 24 hours a day. [00:23:11] Speaker B: So tell me what, what's going through your mind? Going to the hospital on a Saturday. [00:23:16] Speaker A: You went on Sunday. Yeah. [00:23:18] Speaker B: So what's going through your mind? Between Sunday and Thursday. [00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So the suicide attempt was Saturday, early afternoon. [00:23:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:29] Speaker A: And then you got put in the hospital. They kept you overnight. And then the next day they called me and said, hey, here's what we're going to do. Or I think you called me, and I had already seen you, like two or three times. I came up there and saw you and talked to you and. And of course, you were still very. Just way up here. [00:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:49] Speaker A: You know, with your anxiety, you're completely unhinged. I mean, not in. Like, I thought you were gonna hurt me away, but I could tell you you were not thinking it wasn't me. Yeah. But every time I would talk to you, when I would get away from you and come home, I would just be tore up. I would be scared. I would be thinking, oh, my God, what am I gonna do? Who is this person? Person. I didn't even know which person I was married to. Was I married to the one who loved me and, you know, like, who you were around me, Was that who you really were? Or was that. Were you really the other person? I mean, it was literally like two different people, Right? [00:24:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:31] Speaker A: But every time I would come see you, I would have peace again. I would talk to you and I would feel good. But every time I got away from you, I would start just, you know. And so anyway, they take you and you're like four hours away from me and I can't talk to you. And so literally all I could do besides work, which was another terrible situation. I had, you know, decided, like, to leave the job I was at. And I started a brand new job that week because the Lord said, do it now. And I said, right now? Like, can I maybe wait until. And he's like, no, you do it right now. Because the pay was going to be double. [00:25:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Where I was. And I knew that I was going to need it, because at this point, now I'm worried about, oh, my God, what are we going to do about our finances. I'm already in a commission job that is Easter famine. You had the only stable income in our home. So I'm thinking, so I have that weight on me as well. And, like, I was floating around, you know, I don't. I don't even know how to describe it. When you go through something traumatic, it's like you're not in your body, you know, But. And I've told this story, and I know you've heard it, but I have to tell it because it's right to me. I think it helped people understand you know how they can get through something like this. But you were gone. You. I think this is probably Monday, right? Maybe Tuesday. And. And I'm just trying to survive. I got the new job going. I have to go through all this stupid training, and I'm, like, losing my mind and I'm having to do training. But I had. Was listening to this book, and it was an audiobook, and it was about a woman who had gone through something like this. And she talks about how she got through it, and she's just giving you, like, advice. And she said, you know, she was going to be counselor. The counselor said, you. You need to just do some deep breathing. She's like, are you kidding me? Deep breathing is supposed to fix my problem, you know, and because it's super hard to be still and breathe for 20 minutes. So she said that's what she did. She did this for weeks where she would set her timer. And at first, when she first started doing it, it felt so ridiculous, and she could hardly be still. But as she kept doing it, it was bringing her down out of this fight or flight mode, out of flight mode. And because what was going on is I couldn't hear God and I had to hear him because I didn't know what in the heck to do. [00:26:55] Speaker B: Okay, so tell me about your friends this time, because you've got a really good core group of friends who are basically sisters to you. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Right? Right. So I have a couple of really good friends that. And of course, I have my family as well. But in these kind of situations, you hate to drag your family into it all the time because, you know, they're going to have a hard time forgiving if. If I decide to stay with you, you know, they have to work through it, too. And so a lot of times, and they're. They're so protective of you. So I wanted to go outside of. Of my family. Wanted to go outside of my family so that I could. So I could. Sorry, I'm gonna have to edit this out. I wanted to go outside of my family and talk to my friends a little bit so I could get a perspective that was not so protective of me that I could really hear kind of like, what is the Lord saying? How does he feel about this? Because I needed to know what he wanted me to do. And, you know, the thing is, God is not going to force you to do anything you don't want to do. He's a God of free will. And I had to. But I had to get quiet enough to hear what his thoughts Were like, what is he like he knew this was going to happen. Right. So what, what was he planning? I mean, and then I'm just trying to work through, like, why would you let me marry this into this situation if you knew this was going to happen? Blah, blah, blah. All that stuff is going through my mind. So anyway, I, I just did what the woman said. I set the clock, my timer for 20 minutes. I was sitting outside and I just started breathing and it was so hard. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that deep breathing, meditating as new age as it sounds, I think even the prophet meditated. [00:28:48] Speaker A: It's all through the Bible. [00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's all through the Bible. So get that out of your head. That meditating is a horrible thing. It's not right. But I think that, that this is new. It kind of centers you in the presence of the Lord. And when you meditate on God, that means your mind is, it was black. There's no intrusive thoughts coming in, no husband in a hospital. It's just you and the Lord. And I think that's when you can most hear God. [00:29:15] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:16] Speaker B: And, and what were your friends and what were God telling? [00:29:19] Speaker A: Well, my friends, you know, were, they were being very supportive and, and hey, pray, hey, seek the Lord. Don't make any decisions right now, God. But they would also say things like, hey, God can turn anything around. God can change anything if he's willing. If you're willing, God can. Absolutely. You know, there's hope for this, there's restoration. And actually I had several people, when they would pray for me, they would say, I just heard restoration. And actually one of those was Allie. Allie was our daughter was telling me that. And I mean, how crazy is it that. [00:29:55] Speaker B: Well, it's my daughter in law and you know, you know, my stepdaughter, that's. [00:29:59] Speaker A: What I meant, stepdaughter. [00:30:00] Speaker B: I don't do the whole family like in laws, uncles, uncles, I don't, I have no idea. You just in my family. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Right, but let me, let me. So, so I'm, I'm, I'm breathing and that's so hard. What I had to literally do was just focus on breathing. I wasn't thinking about anything else. I was literally going and counting. One, two, three, four. Hold it, four. And then I would breathe it out for four. And I just kept doing it over and over and over. And it got to the point as you get about 10 minutes, your body starts to relax. At about 15, you're almost asleep. But I just kept doing it and my hands felt like they weighed 150 pounds. I was just melting into the chair. It was crazy. And so the timer went off. And, you know, I didn't. I wasn't necessarily trying to hear God. I was just breathing. But I got up and went into the house, and then I said, lord, speak to me. And that's when he did. He spoke to me, and he gave me a really powerful word. He told me I kept hearing the word ditches. And I'm like, that's such a strange word to hear. And I told you, and I called you on the phone, told you, and you're just kind of, like, out of it. You're like. I mean, when you called me, I told you what I had heard. You're like, okay, that's great. But so I'm like, what does ditches mean? So I, of course, Google, like, scriptures with ditches in it. And it took me to second Kings 3, 16, where it's talking about, they're going into battle. Israel and Judah are going into battle against these other, like, Moabites and some other people. But they find themselves in a place where they have no water, Right? They're in there, in this valley, and they have no water. So it says that their army had no water. There was no water for the cows that were with them. I guess the cattle, they were running. I guess they were going to eat them. I don't know why they didn't. [00:31:50] Speaker B: That's what I had to know. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:51] Speaker B: I mean, they carry their grocery store with them on during wartime. During wartime, yeah. [00:31:55] Speaker A: So, I mean, like, obviously they can't fight a battle without water, and they're going to die if they don't get it. And so they call the prophet, they call Elisha. And Elisha says, basically, after he complains a little bit, he says, dig the ditches. God says, dig the ditches. He said, there will be no wind. There will be no rain, but these. These ditches will be full of water. And it happened. And I was like, whoa. Or I mean, it was so powerful the way he said it to me. And I'm thinking, okay. And it says in that scripture, after he says what God's going to do, then he says, and this is a small thing for the Lord to do. This. This is nothing. And it's like he was telling me, this is a small thing for me to fix your marriage. This is a small. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, I'm over here thinking, this is the biggest catastrophic event of my life. How could it ever be fixed? And he's like, this is a small thing. I can fix it and just prepare. And so I'm telling you about it, and we've been trying to, you know, like, meditate on that, figure out. And so we just felt like over the past few months, he's been telling us to prepare because he was going to bless us, he was going to send his provision, his blessing, and he wanted us to prepare for that. [00:33:07] Speaker B: Okay, all right. So I come home. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Right? So you're jumping back to that. Okay, gotcha. [00:33:12] Speaker B: Back to that. So I come home. [00:33:14] Speaker A: Five days you were. You're gone five days. [00:33:16] Speaker B: On five days, you had to drive north of Dallas to Sherman. [00:33:21] Speaker A: I hate driving in the city. Yeah. [00:33:23] Speaker B: To pick me up and tell me about. Tell me about what? I know you had to wait for a minute before I got there. Tell me what was going on in your heart and in your mind. [00:33:33] Speaker A: That's conflicted. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Part of me was. My spirit was forgiving you. I had forgiven you. I still was hurt, but I was like. I don't know. It's like God's love was just working through me. You know what I mean? But my flesh sometimes would be like, okay, hey, buddy, I'm going to make faith for that, you know? [00:34:01] Speaker B: Okay. So we got home. We sat there a day. We got home. And what was going through your head whenever I was. Cause I know. I remembered that time there. And I know your mom called you like, six times a day, just until. I mean, I know and I understand that. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Everybody was scared that you were. [00:34:17] Speaker B: I love your mother. Your mother loves you. Everybody was scared I was gonna do something stupid. What was it like? Cause I was pretty sure you thought I was never gonna walk into this house again. That's what crossed my mind when I was up there. So what was your. What was your mentality like? What was your. Were you in fight or flight while I was home? When I. When I first came home, what was your emotion? [00:34:42] Speaker A: No, I was actually okay. I mean, I really feel like the Lord came in really strongly that week for me, and I felt level and I felt mostly okay. It actually didn't get harder until later. It was. It was the after that, you know, because when you. When you go through something like that, through the trauma, you actually hold yourself together. Okay. It's after when you fall apart. So I was okay. I wanted you here. I did not for one second think you are not. I felt like you wanted to be here. I knew you were ashamed and you hated yourself, but I knew. I felt like you still really loved me. [00:35:23] Speaker B: I did. [00:35:24] Speaker A: Even. Even though it had happened and I didn't even know everything yet. I just knew part of the story, but feel like. Like God was confirming to me that you did love me. But it was when we went to church that Sunday, and I saw the change. Yeah, I saw you. Your hand shot up at the end of that message, and you were crying and you were saying the prayer, the sinner's prayer. And it's like the prodigal moment that everybody wants to see for somebody they love is that person. I get to see that with you. Like, you actually coming back to God and meaning it. I mean, you can't fake that. [00:36:08] Speaker B: No, you can't fake that. That was a really good moment in my life because I don't guess I had ever really fully surrendered to the Lord. You know, being in the military and I was in for so long, and I was so used to supposedly taking care of myself and to my fire team and my squad that I didn't really think about God. [00:36:29] Speaker A: You're independent. [00:36:30] Speaker B: I was very independent. Well, you have to be independent to get through things. So the first moment that I felt the Lord was. I was on fire. But at first I was feeling so guilty and so unworthy of it that I fought it. I fought it most of that service. I was like, I have messed up way too bad. I can't lift that. I don't deserve it. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you didn't forgive yourself. And I think every time you looked at me, you felt bad. [00:37:06] Speaker B: I felt terrible because I knew what I had done to you. And all you ever asked me to do was just love you, you know, but other than the occasional energy drink or, you know, dessert or something. But, you know, we just. I look back on it now and I see that I almost ruined something that was so nice, something that was so pretty. And if it hadn't been for God and you'd grace, and you'd grace and God's grace. I guess I need to say it that way. If it hadn't been for God's grace and yours, I really don't think I would be here today. I think that anytime you have a soldier that doesn't have anything to look forward to, those thoughts will be back at him. And one of the things that you were reassuring of whenever I was gone is that you were like, we're going to talk about it when you get home. When you talk about it when you get home. It never crossed my mind that I wasn't. [00:38:07] Speaker A: You know, you did keep asking me Are we going to get a divorce? Are you going to divorce me? Yeah, you can divorce me. I just need to know. And I would be like, I don't know. Did I say that? [00:38:16] Speaker B: Yeah, you said, I don't know. [00:38:17] Speaker A: I think maybe at first I did, but then I think I said, no, I'm not. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:23] Speaker A: I couldn't lie to you. [00:38:24] Speaker B: Right. I broke down when you said that because I'm like, how can this person forgive me after I've done all these things? But. Okay, so we are almost a year into it. Yeah, almost a year. September 20th will be a year. Tell me what it has been like for you. Okay, so. And don't sugarcoat this now, because I know that you're dealing with mistrust, anxiety, some other things that you. I'm sure you'll come to mind with. But tell me what. Everything's known. Counseling's going well. Tell me what's going on in your head throughout that summer or throughout the winter, in the spring, while I'm at home. Well, you know, while we were rolling down the highway. [00:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think one of the things people need to know is that you cannot go through something like that by yourself. You cannot think that you're fine and that you don't need to talk about it with somebody or that you don't need support. That's almost arrogance. And I think. I think I probably had a little bit of a pride about it. I wasn't trying to, but I really thought I was okay. But as the week went on, I got more angry and I got more sad, and then I got angry, and then I got sad, and then I was okay, and then I was numb, and then I was angry, and then I was sad. I mean, it was. It was the cycle of grief. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Because grief happens after the event. [00:40:05] Speaker B: Well, you were. I know there's a five stages of grief when it comes to death, but I think something died with our marriage. The innocence definitely died. And then something was reborn later down the road. [00:40:26] Speaker A: The fairy tale died, which was. Honestly, it probably needed to die, because fairy tales aren't real. And it's not that I'm saying you can't have true love and you can't have a beautiful marriage. But you. The ideas that you have in your head of what your marriage is, they're probably not true or they're not realistic. They're not realistic. And that doesn't mean you can't have some of that. And. And you can't have a beautiful marriage, because I think we do now. [00:40:57] Speaker B: I Do I think we really. [00:40:59] Speaker A: But I had to work through all those cycles. And, you know, with grief, it's not like a. A streamlined process where you go, okay, I'm angry for a while. And then you go through sadness, and then you go through denial, and then you bargain. I wish it was that easy, but it's not. It's just a big hodgepodge of crap, and you just kind of vacillate between them all. And so I never knew. And you know this. There were weeks where I was angry with you for weeks. And I was. Crazy acting. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:28] Speaker A: And there were times when I would just cry my eyes out. I would just be so devastated. And I couldn't. Like, I couldn't believe it happened or that you did it. And I would say things like, how could you do this to me? How could you do this to me? And the truth is, yes, it was done to me in some way. I was a victim, but it wasn't about me. We were talking about this the other day. It wasn't about me. It never had anything to do with me. And that's so hard to believe when this happens to you. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Well, your heart hurts. And when things fall apart like they do, and you saw the things you did, heard me say the things that I did do, the things that I did, you can't help but be devastated and helps. [00:42:10] Speaker A: It's not just that. It's the. I think one of the things I've struggled with the most is the flashbacks of seeing text messages or things that people said to. Or phone calls, and then I'm triggered by. Which is a whole other episode. But I'm. Then I'm back in mistrust. And I'm thinking, do I really know everything? [00:42:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:31] Speaker A: You know, if I'm being really honest, that's something I struggle with all the time. And, you know, that is just. What do I. Do I really know everything? Or do I just know what you want me to know? And finally, there comes a point. Our counselors talk about this with me. Yeah. Where there comes a point where you will drive yourself insane like a detective trying to figure out, like, what happened. And finally, though the Lord. The Lord. When the Lord tells me something, I listen. He's the only one I trust. I'm sorry. I mean, we are rebuilding our trust, but as far as. In these moments, in this moment in my life, he was the only one that I trusted to tell me the absolute truth. And he just told me, you know what? I need you to. What you needed to know what I needed you to know. That's what you know. You don't need to know anything. And when he told me that, then it became easier for me to let this go and not keep trying to find out more information. And what about this time? Because what happens is you start guessing, second guessing absolutely everything you've ever. Every little detail that, you know, we were involved in together. I start, well, what about this one time? [00:43:39] Speaker B: Okay, so let me ask you. When you're in bed and you wake up and you have these thoughts, do you think that's the demonic realm? Do you think that's just a little bitty thing in your ear? [00:43:50] Speaker A: I think it could be both, yeah. I mean, because that's a struggle. Because if any of you are walking through betrayal or being traumatized by anything, one of their responses is, during the day, I'm able to control it more. But at night, you're not. Right. Because you're asleep. And that part of your brain is just like. It's like, zoned out. So this subconscious part of your brain that thinks that you might be in danger, the reptilian part is like, hey, have you thought about this? Because I think you might still be in danger. You might need to look at this situation. So that's what I struggle with now. And it's not all the time, but I do several times a month, I wake up going, and it'll usually be consecutive days. Like five or six days of me just being kind of twice tormented. I do think, sometimes I think it's physiological, but sometimes I think it is the enemy just trying to figure out a way to play games with me. Mind games. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:51] Speaker A: You know? [00:44:52] Speaker B: Right. Because I think that if we weren't doing things the right way, wouldn't be having. Sorry about that. We have a dog that is terrified of thunder. And it is thundering outside. And our dog went outside for a minute and she's nowhere to be found. So sorry for the glitch there, but I think that. Lost my train of thought. Sorry. I do that quite a bit too well. [00:45:21] Speaker A: I think that it could be. It's both. So I found the enemy likes to play games with me during the day a lot, too, to get me caught up in my flesh if I don't constantly surrender myself before the Lord. Because here's the thing. I told the Lord I would partner with him or you, for us to stay together. Because he loves you and I love you. And he left. You know, he's gonna give you a choice. He gave me the choice. I had a. Now I could have taken it. But I loved you. I love you. And I just felt like he was saying, if you will. If you will partner with me, this is gonna turn out good. And so I couldn't go back on that and go, oh, I've changed my mind now. So I'm just gonna just, you know, believe everything. The enemy, because he's just. Now that he knows that we're gonna do this, he's terrified because what we're doing right now, he doesn't want us to help anybody. [00:46:16] Speaker B: Okay, so we've got where your emotions. [00:46:20] Speaker A: Everything, are kind of leveling off, somewhat regulated. [00:46:23] Speaker B: Okay, so tell me the things that you would ask or tell the group or tell the listeners what you have asked me to do to make you feel better when I'm away from home. Like the app. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Well, we were already using an app so we could track each other, and you told me that that's one of the things that kept you from going. [00:46:46] Speaker B: It kept me honest to a certain extent. It absolutely kept me. [00:46:49] Speaker A: Because you would have been caught. Yeah. I would have been like, what are you doing there? [00:46:52] Speaker B: Right? [00:46:55] Speaker A: Because, you know, I'm always like, where are you? I'm always checking. [00:47:00] Speaker B: God forbid I go the wrong way somewhere. You call me. What are you doing? [00:47:04] Speaker A: I have learned your tells as far as, like, I know when you're anxious. I know what makes you anxious. I feel it. I used to ignore it and think it was just me before all this, but now I'm like, nope, I sensing it. Yeah, I sense it. I hear. I know something's going on with you, and I know what causes it, and I know when to get you out of an environment that you like. Even the other day at church, we had to leave because it was just too much for both of us. But I think for you, you had reached that limit. It was too loud. There was too much moving around. The people were moving around too much. It was out of control. [00:47:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Guys like me, we don't really like a whole lot of loud noises. And if we have to sit anywhere prolonged amount of time now. I love going to church. I like the church we're going to. You know, we get to hear our. We get to hear Ali sing every weekend. She has a beautiful voice. Kind of sounds like Adele. Our son, Dre. Our son in law, Dre, sings. He's the lead worship minister there at the church, and I love to hear them sing. But something about last weekend, I don't know. [00:48:15] Speaker A: It was very loud. [00:48:16] Speaker B: It was very loud. [00:48:17] Speaker A: There was a lot of, like, a baby Screaming and all this kind of stuff. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it was, it was, it was. [00:48:22] Speaker A: Sensory overload for me, too. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that anyone who has any type of anxiety disorder, as far as depression or PTSD for that matter, anytime you start getting too many things hitting you in too many different directions, you're going to have this meltdown if you don't have a calm, reassuring voice that doesn't argue with you. So spouses, if offending party is at church with you and they say, I've got, don't argue with them, you know, because church is always going to be there. You know, if they tell you that, you know what, I'm just feeling very anxious right now. You know, the first thing, the first thing that comes to my mind is like, why are you anxious in God's help? You know? But it's nothing to do with God. It's nothing to do with the Lord. It's nothing to do with your relationship with the Lord. There's just something that's triggering going on. [00:49:19] Speaker A: Something that reminds you of being in combat, right? [00:49:23] Speaker B: Even with you. Even with you, if you're going through emotions of like, some mornings you wake up and I ask you, how are you doing? You're like, I'm not good today. That's because you had that stuff going on during the night. And even with the spouse who was the hurt party, if they tell you they're overloaded, get them out. Take them somewhere where there's no stimulation. [00:49:43] Speaker A: Because there's something out there. Ptsd. If you have a situation where you've been betrayed, like this situation, there's something called eos. What is it? I can't remember. But it's basically if you've been betrayed because of infidelity, right? [00:50:04] Speaker B: I didn't know that. [00:50:06] Speaker A: It's not like in the DSM 5, but it's basically I'm reading a book about it. I can't remember the name of it, but it caught it. It causes a type of ptsd. It may not be like, it can be PTSD if you don't deal with it. Like I've been dealing with it, right? Like if you just try to suppress it and you didn't get help and you didn't get counseling and you didn't talk about it, you just act like, you know, it's fine, whatever, or you just get out of the relationship and you don't ever heal, right? Because then you're just going to drag it into the next one. It can. It can lead to PTSD for people. So I didn't want to be in that statistic. Even though you and I have talked and we think that I have it from other stuff. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Well, there's a lot going on in your life before you even knew me that, obviously. And PTSD isn't just for veterans. [00:50:53] Speaker A: Right? [00:50:53] Speaker B: It's not just for people who are in the military. It's for anyone who has been through any type of a traumatic situation. Like the. [00:51:02] Speaker A: There's different levels of ptsd. They diagnose you with complex ptsd, which is. Which is repeated exposure to trauma over lots of years. So that's a way worse situation because now your brain is adapted to levels of adrenaline. Mine's not. I'm not that way, so I don't have that. Mine's just more of, like, being traumatized by something and never being the same. [00:51:27] Speaker B: Right. That evolves, you know, and guys like me, it involves risky behavior. [00:51:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Extreme sports. I've never been really guilty of driving fast. I've never been guilty of that. I drive like an old man. But pornography, gambling, which I don't do any of those, I think. [00:51:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I even told you a couple times, I was like, you know, I mean, when I was crying, I was. I was like, why couldn't you have picked a different drug? [00:51:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Like, why did you have to pick this one? This is the one that hurt me. [00:51:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:57] Speaker A: It was selfish to say that, but. [00:51:59] Speaker B: There was a lot of porn in the Middle East. Whenever we would get deployed, you know, we would get all. Guys always had videos and stuff, even though it was illegal over there. But I never. I think me having a daughter. I think having a daughter really, really hit me in the heart about it. Even when I was poor. Brianna was born. I didn't like it. But after Brianna was born, I'm thinking, that's somebody's daughter that's being abused right there. We're sitting there getting joy out of it. This is. But, I mean, no matter how you put it, cheating, getting adrenaline fix through infidelity of any shape or fashion is wrong. And there's no excuse. Communication is always the best thing. If I had just communicated with you. [00:52:45] Speaker A: Yeah, but you didn't feel safe enough to. [00:52:47] Speaker B: Well, I didn't feel safe. [00:52:48] Speaker A: How do you tell someone, hey, I'm a sex addict and I've been texting other women, like, I would have lost my mind? I don't know that there would have been a good way to tell me. [00:52:59] Speaker B: I don't think so. Because you. You. You and I come from very, very different lives. They're very Very different types of paths as far as family. Now, you've had some problems with one of your family members, but you guys have worked that out now, and you guys are very close. But my family and life has never really gotten. The one thing that I could have done any different was come to you and not be afraid. [00:53:24] Speaker A: Well, before it ever happened, you know. [00:53:25] Speaker B: Ever happened, there's some feelings in me that I need to get out right now, and I don't know how to do that. [00:53:31] Speaker A: Well, you did say it, but you didn't say it in a way that made sense to me. You said. You kept telling me I need to go do man stuff. And I said, okay, go do man stuff. I need to go hunt or fish. Okay, go. [00:53:44] Speaker B: Where am I gonna go? [00:53:45] Speaker A: And I said, well, we'll go. We'll go to Mina. And then it always would be like, we couldn't go because we have cabin in Mena, Arkansas. And we were like, something because we always had to work. It's like we could never go. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Right? [00:53:57] Speaker A: And now I look back and this is a whole other podcast episode that we need to do that talks about, like, putting the first things first, like, realizing that everything's not about money and making a living, like, being bold enough and brave enough and confident enough to trust God financially. [00:54:15] Speaker B: Right? [00:54:15] Speaker A: And putting your. Putting your marriage before all that crap because we were putting money and the need for it and trying to take care of ourselves. Something God's been teaching us the last year is, hey, trust me. [00:54:28] Speaker B: Okay, so I think we're kind of winding things down now. So what do you think as far as, okay, you're speaking to women who have been the victim of death, you're dealing, you're married to. And men, you're married to a veteran. [00:54:49] Speaker A: Or you're married to a cop. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Are you married to a cop? [00:54:51] Speaker A: Are you married to a doctor or. [00:54:52] Speaker B: A nurse or a fireman? Someone who has seen some traumatic things in their life. How do you do it? How do you get married to him? How do you stay married to him? I mean, what's. What is. I think you figured it out pretty well. But. But I think that only through the. Well, I'll let you know that. But I think that. How do you do that? [00:55:13] Speaker A: I think it requires, first of all, a lot of empathy. You have to be able to see the world through their eyes. But I couldn't do that without God. Like, he's given me that. And there's people I know that are like, I do not have any mercy whatsoever. It's like, not one of my gifts. Well, I'm just the opposite. I'm way too merciful. But I believe that's the heart of God. I believe mercy is the heart of God. Grace, mercy. And when I think about, okay, Jesus forgave all of us for all of our sins. Those of us that have come to the cross and said, admitted it, please forgive me, right? He doesn't hold it over our head. He doesn't, like, you know, for the rest of our lives, badger us with it, you know, Remember that time you did this to me? And one of the things that kept me in this with you was, how many times have I symbolically cheated on the Lord? [00:56:15] Speaker B: Oh, we do it every day, right? We do it every day. [00:56:18] Speaker A: Does he. Does he take me back? Yeah. Does he forgive you? Does he. Does he constantly talk about it? Or does he just forgive you? Does he expect you to change, of course, with his help? [00:56:31] Speaker B: Well, I think that around that time, God wants you to lean in further on him. [00:56:39] Speaker A: You gotta die to yourself, right? [00:56:40] Speaker B: And I think that couples that are going through the things that we've been going through, I think that's one of the secrets that you've got to lean in on each other. Don't listen to outside noise, right? Don't listen. Don't listen to things you hear on the TV. YouTube can be a good resource for some things. It can be terrible, though, but it can be terrible. [00:57:01] Speaker A: I've seen some of the comments because I've watched a lot of videos like this, and I have seen people get on there and say, you know what? I'd dump that loser. He's a freaking piece of crap. Stay with him. They cheat on you, they'll always be a cheater. I mean, just. And a lot of that seems true when you've been hurt. But I'm telling you, there's a story underneath their pain. And if you can get past for one moment, get yourself out of the way and see what happened to that person that made them do that, because they probably didn't want to. Very few people, I think, want or intentionally set out to cheat on their spouse. [00:57:37] Speaker B: Well, and if someone out there does intentionally cheat, or if they're serial cheaters and they're unrepentant of it, that's a whole different. [00:57:45] Speaker A: That's a whole different thing. I'm not talking about. [00:57:46] Speaker B: We're talking about our story and how I can relate to other people as far as having infidelity and going through the motions that we have done. But if you're With a serial cheater who is unrepentant. And that's a whole different. [00:58:04] Speaker A: Yeah, you've got to hear from God for your situation. I don't think that it's the same in every situation. I think God knows the other person's heart. [00:58:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:58:12] Speaker A: But it's going to be a risk either way. Like, I think we try to. None of us want to get hurt, so we try to figure out a way where it's not risky. But love is always a risk. And that's something he told me because I begged him to just tell me, like, how is this going to end? Are we going to be okay? And I just felt like he said love is always a risk. Even it's a risk with us. When he loves us, it's a risk for him, you know? And I think that when I begin to look at our. Our marriage through his eyes and kind of hold up my relationship with God and hold up my relationship in my marriage with you and realize there were similarities and that's how the marriage altar came about. Because we really figured out that, okay, if we're gonna make this work, it's. It's a three string chord that's not easily broken. [00:58:58] Speaker B: Right, right, right. [00:59:00] Speaker A: It's like a harmony, you know, in harmony. Because I'm a musician too. Harmony is three notes. You can't have harmony with just two notes. Actually. True harmony is three notes. [00:59:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:59:11] Speaker A: And so it's interesting to me because it's. It's a trinity as well. Like you have the Trinity, the bottom. Holy Spirit, Our marriage is us and him. [00:59:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:59:20] Speaker A: And when he's in the middle, when he's involved with, has hope and it can survive and it can thrive and it can become beautiful, but without him, I don't think it can happen, you know? [00:59:32] Speaker B: Okay, so we kind of touched on that just now. Okay, so tell women and spouses and the victims of cheating, what is the best way for them to forgive. As far as forgetting is going to be impossible. It's always going to be. And I think the best thing, that it's not forgotten. But as far as forgiving and putting it past you and moving forward. [01:00:12] Speaker A: Tell. [01:00:12] Speaker B: Me what your tools were. I mean, I'm pretty sure I know the Lord was a lot of it, but there had to be some things that you tried, things that you did and read that helped you get through that. [01:00:26] Speaker A: Anytime I have to forgive someone, one of the pictures I always have in front of me is Jesus on the cross. And he's telling them as they are spitting Pulling his beard, whipping him, whatever. Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing. And I'm thinking, if the Son of God can forgive people for the horrendous things they did to them, how could I not? Like, how do I have the. How do I have the right to not forgive someone if he forgives? That's. That's the way I see forgiveness. Does that mean it's easy? Does that mean I always want to? No, but it's been. Because I've been able to put myself in your shoes. And I would say if you are married to someone who has ptsd, you really, really need to understand ptsd. You need to research it. You need to talk to counselors, you need to get therapy and maybe even be in a support group for people, spouses that are married to veterans with ptsd, because if you don't understand what's going on in their brain. And I just so happened. And I think this is a God thing. You know, I've been trained in some counseling. I've been trained and done a lot of, like, some psychology classes. So I had a little bit of it. I had enough to know that it's real. Okay? Because a lot of people that don't understand, they're ignorant of PTSD or any other mental disorder for that matter. And they just think people are making it up. They just think it's like, oh, my gosh, just get over it. Well, until you've been in that person's shoes and you've been in a war zone with bullets flying by your head, or your best friend just got killed right in front of you, I don't think you have anything to say that, that you don't understand. [01:02:15] Speaker B: Right? [01:02:15] Speaker A: And so I've always tried to put myself in a situation where, okay, let me look at this through your eyes. How, what made you like this, right? Because if I can understand what did it, then I can have passion. Remember the day in March, few more things came out, few months ago, and I. You came home and you were. You were. And I'm not going to go into what. What happened, right? But I said to you, you said, sit down, I need to talk to you. And you start telling me. And this is the first time I think you had ever been, I mean, honest with me. Like, this has been the struggle of my life. I've never told anybody that. So anyway, I don't know what I was saying exactly, but I was saying something about looking at it through your eyes and we. And that day you said, I need you to sit down. I got. You were so honest with me, and I said I wanted to get in my flesh and I wanted to start, like, throwing darts and hurling and being like, you hurt me so bad. But I said to you, okay, I'm going to put my counselor hat on. I'm going to listen. Do you remember me saying that? [01:03:20] Speaker B: I do. [01:03:21] Speaker A: I'm going to be a counselor. I'm going to put myself to the side right now, and I'm just going to listen to you because you're hurting, and I think that's what you have to do. You have to somehow, like, get outside of yourself for a minute. [01:03:33] Speaker B: Right. Well, you know, men, I think that whenever you finally reach a point, you have to put the macho aside, you have to put your pride aside. And I know there are some guys I'm never gonna let my pride go. But you know what? Probably go for the fall. And I didn't want to fall anymore because I was at rock bottom after that there. I just didn't know what to do. You gotta let go of your pride, and you've got to have really hard conversations that are gonna make you look bad. But then you've also got to depend on the Lord and see what God's going to do with it. Luckily, I'm blessed enough to where he put it in your heart to forgive. [01:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And I think that I knew that you were being so honest. [01:04:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I was. [01:04:30] Speaker A: And it wasn't even. It was things that were really hard for me to hear. [01:04:34] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I'll go ahead and tell them. What it was is the one thing that I had never told you was about my addiction. And my sexual addiction started when I was 14, 13, 14 years old. And I remember the first time, and from there it was like I was a totally different man. And through high school, the military being out, you know, being deployed, and then getting out of the military, like 40. [01:05:05] Speaker A: Years of this addiction. [01:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. [01:05:07] Speaker A: That no one knew about. [01:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah, Exactly. Yeah, exactly. 40 years of this addiction that no one knew and no one cared, you know, I mean, I didn't have that in my family where I can go and just talk to them and say, hey, man, this is what I'm doing. My dad be like, all right, cool. You know, that was a dad was a truck driver eating here. And then my mom would have beat me with the Bible, you know, So I just. I just kind of kept it to myself. [01:05:36] Speaker A: It was the only thing that made you feel better. [01:05:37] Speaker B: It was the only thing that made Me feel good. How am I going to tell you that? You know, I mean, I just met this nice, beautiful woman, we got married really quick and I left out a lot of things. And how am I going to come up to you and tell you, oh, yeah, by the way, I'm a sex addict. Will you marry me? You know that ain't going to happen, you know, so probably not. God exposes all things in his own timing. And I think that that was a total God thing, the way it came out, why it came out and all of that. Because now I don't feel. I don't feel dirty. I don't feel ashamed anymore. [01:06:16] Speaker A: Yeah, self hatred. [01:06:18] Speaker B: I am so I'm not clean, but my garments are being washed. You are clean, but I think that, I think that with time and with patience on both of our parts, we're going to get through this. And I'm just going to tell the offending party, man or female, don't just put up with the insecurity. Talk through the insecurity. If they want to put a tracking app on your phone if you've got nothing to hide, by gosh, put a tracking app on your phone. If they call you and say, hey, where are you going? And you're like, I told you I was going to the store. They're like, well, you never go that way. Give them some grace. Because if they're used to you going a certain way, one way or the other, and you go a different route, like I did that day. Yeah, that's going to cause some issues because it's going to be a trigger for you and you're not going to do well with it. So you've got to give them grace when it comes to questioning you about things. Because you have to remember that even though you were the one who did the hurting and you've been able to push through it, sometimes things are going to come up to make that person re remember those emotions and you have got to give them grace. Well, first thing is you did. The first thing is that you did it. And the second thing is that they gave you grace and they're still with you. And you also have to remember that God forgave. So you have to be patient with them as much as they have had to be patient with you. [01:07:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I was, I was gonna say one, one last thing. I think that really, I wish I'd have known this sooner, but I would just say, look for God's reassurances. Look for his hand in it. Because what you're gonna be drawn to is all the negative you're gonna be drawn to. Oh, oh, here's another secret. Oh, here's another lie. Oh, I can't trust you. Oh, like you're always drawn to the negative in the situation. [01:08:17] Speaker B: Right. [01:08:17] Speaker A: But if you will, look, God is probably working on some things too, and they're positive. So, like, for us, every time I would start questioning whether or not I did, I've questioned whether or not at moments, did I make the right decision. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Right. [01:08:32] Speaker A: You know, we've had fights or whatever. [01:08:34] Speaker B: That's fair. [01:08:35] Speaker A: And I would be like, oh, my God, am I being lied to? Am I just being, you know, taken for granted or advantage of again? And. And then I would remember God gave me signs all along the way, and he was revealing. Yes, this is my plan. Trust me. Trust me. And. And I would be honest with you. I couldn't trust you, but I could trust him. [01:08:57] Speaker B: But do you still trust me? [01:08:59] Speaker A: I'm building. That's being built back. [01:09:01] Speaker B: And that's why I told everyone to give you some grace about it is because do the tracking app answer the questions, you know, rebuild the trust. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Okay. So you don't know if it's. You don't know if you can trust the person again unless you give them a leash to do something. You know what I mean? [01:09:17] Speaker B: Right. That's what our counselor said. [01:09:18] Speaker A: Right. So I just. I've been. I think I've been doing better with that. [01:09:22] Speaker B: You've been doing a lot better. But I guess before we close, I'll just tell you guys, if you're in our situation, one of the biggest things you can do besides prayer and having a deep relationship with the Lord is get counseling. We got lucky, and we have a wonderful counselor. She has been fantastic. I also get counseling through the va, but we're not going to touch on that right now because lots and lots and lots, lots and lots. [01:09:48] Speaker A: I think that, you know, and also something we're working on is our. As a coaching certification. Our objective and goal is to start helping people because we feel God's calling us to do this. But if you want to be in contact with us, of course you can comment here or wherever, but you can also email us at Shanna, which is S H A n [email protected] and yes, it is strange not Williams, because that was my other name before we got married. [01:10:18] Speaker B: She. It matters. [01:10:19] Speaker A: We're both really quirky stage name. So. Shannastrange.net so [email protected] email me there email us there. And if. If you're wanting to talk to us and. [01:10:32] Speaker B: And you can also hear her music on any. [01:10:35] Speaker A: Any platforms. [01:10:36] Speaker B: Jenna Strange. One of my favorite songs with her is like a Prodigal. [01:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that was your song. [01:10:42] Speaker B: It's my song. I love it. Anyway, everybody, you got anything else, love? [01:10:49] Speaker A: No, I think we're good. Why don't we just pray real quick? [01:10:52] Speaker B: Okay. [01:10:53] Speaker A: All right. Lord, let me just. We come before you. We thank you for your grace, your mercy, your. Your plans are always good. Lord, I just thank you that whoever is hearing this is. Are. Are the people that need to hear this. And I pray that you work forgiveness in heart, that there's where forgiveness needs to be worked. That you work your plan for the good that. Where the enemy would. To bring destruction. God, that you have a plan and it is good. And that you would bring forth that good plan. And for anybody's hurting, Father, I pray that you just hold them up, God, just hold them in your arms. Give them peace, give them comfort. Direct them to some. Someone that can help them. Counselors, therapists, friends. Father, I pray that you just whisper and sing over them. Sing about your life, love over them. That you have a good plan and that you're going to work it out. We just have to trust you. So I just pray. Yeah. That you are good. [01:11:59] Speaker B: Amen and amen. And we're going to try to put out one of these a week. [01:12:02] Speaker A: Every week. [01:12:03] Speaker B: Every week we're going to try to put out one a week, but my business has been really busy. Your business has been pretty busy. So once a week, the upload time takes what, two hours? [01:12:17] Speaker A: Well, this is audio, so it won't take that long. [01:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So anyway, I hope everyone has a blessed week. [01:12:22] Speaker A: We'll see you, I guess, next week. [01:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Have a good night. [01:12:37] Speaker A: It won't be denied it's stronger than I. Oh, it's stronger than time.